JOHN TURNBULL - PIONEER 1748 - 1834

(See Additional notes added by Grahame Thom in August 2025)

There have been many tales and two books written about John Turnbull, who sailed to Australia, with his family in 1801 on the Coromandel.

I was fortunate to come into contact with both authors; "Upon a State Unknown." by Fay Attewell and "In the Footsteps of John Turnbull by Marie Turnbull. I believed that the truth lay somewhere in between the two stories and this was greatly enhanced when Fiona Turnbull, a Clan member, contacted me with the contents of her family bible.

I will try and be impartial and lay out the evidence so that any descendants can make their own decision.

Fay Attewell is a direct descendant of Mary Ann Turnbull, John's eldest daughter born in London in 1796. Mary Ann survived the horrendous 6 month journey in the Coromandel. The main topic of conversation would obviously have been about home, family and friends.   Travelling companions were the Mein and Johnstone families, who were alleged to be related to the Turnbull's. This has some significance later.

Mary Ann states that her grandfather was named William born c. 1719 and even gives his death as 23 Oct. 1780. She also states that her great grandfather was Nichol Turnbull born 1685 at Melrose. Nichol is such an unusual Christian name that it only appears 5 times throughout the 300 year history of the Scottish PRO', and even more significant all 5 Nichol's were related. The fact that John descends through Nichol 1685 - William c. 1719 - John 1748 is I believe sacrosanct and all other evidence must comply. Other important evidence that all parties agree on is that John was born c. 1748 and had connections to Kelso and Waterloo, the names of his two Australian homes.

However there was a problem. I have copies of every John baptism in the OPR,s There is no John, son of William born anywhere in the 1740's. John's baptism does not officially exist.

I worked with Marie Turnbull for over ten years. She is a prodigious researcher of Turnbull material, throughout Roxboro. My only job was to apply some reasoning to her findings. Her work convinced me that John did not come from Dumfries and her knowledge of the house name of Kelso plus reference to a Banff Mill was extremely important

Banff Mill is a tiny village on the river Teviot, opposite Kelso/Sprouston but in the parish of Berwickshire, which is renowned for its poor or missing family records.    I live about 100 miles to the South and had never heard of Banff mill.   The fact that Marie's family knew that it existed I found remarkable and rather like the name Nichol gave an unshakeable clue as to John's early life

This is where Fiona Turnbull from USA came in; She wrote to me regarding her own family as she descends from the Rev, James Turnbull, born in Kelso in 1798, son of Robert born there in 1760. She had in her possession a family bible which contained the actual times and dates of the children of William and Mary Mains/Meins. They were: William 1742, Mary 1746, John 1748, James 1749, Francis 1754 Jean 1757 and Robert 1760. The early children were born at Melrose (Nichol Turnbull ) Johns date of birth is given as 6th Feb 1748 but the place is not noted. Francis 1754 was born in Eccles, Berwickshire, close to Banff Mill, which means that this John lived near Banff Mill for the first 4 years of his life. Jean and Robert were born in in Kelso.

In one family we have the missing John 1748 son of William, a Meins family as cousins from the Coromandel, and connections to Banff Mill and Kelso. The bible indicates that John was living there in 1760, but did not marry or have children there like his brothers. In other words John had moved on.

There is a suggestion that John served his Tailoring apprenticeship at Minto, which would have taken until 1769, but, Marie discovered john's business address in London, was at Westminster from at least 1772 and his marriage to Ann Warr was in 1790. Almost a 20 year gap. John had obviously been married earlier with older children

I believe that the following children all belong to John;

The timing of the children is immaculate John was certain to name a son after his grandfather so Nichol James speaks for himself.  Southwark seems out of the way until you study a London map. Remember Johns second home, WATERLOO ? John must have had a connection to the area. Waterloo Bridge, not surprisingly, leads to Waterloo Bridge Road, which cuts right through the heart of Southwark. It leads directly to Westminster Bridge Road and John's place of business.

So especially for our cousins from Oz, this is John's pedigree;

James = Malie Ewing, Melrose
William c. 1625 = Jennet Merton m. 24/3/1650 Melrose
Andro 1655 Melrose = Margaret Jerdon m. 10/6/1677, Melrose/Kelso
Nichol 1685 Melrose = Janet Johnstone m. c. 1710
William 1719 = Mary Meins
John 1748 Eccles/Kelso = (1) Ann  (2) Sarah Coulter  (3) Ann Warr

If the same John married Sarah Coulter and Ann Warr, John would have been left with 4 young children aged between 5 and 12 years.  They would have been brought up by John and Ann Warr, so why did none of them travel to Australia with the rest of the family ? I researched each of them individually.

John's marriage in 1775, to Sarah Coulter, took place in the Parish of St. Martins, Westminster.  Their 4 children, William, Mary, John and Catherine were all baptised in that same parish.  John and Ann Warr married in 1790 at St. Anne's, Soho, Westminster. Their first 6 children  were all baptised in the parish of St. Annes. John's last known address before moving to Australia, was Berners Mews, Soho. We now know exactly where the family were between 1790 and 1802.

If we concentrate on the children of the first marriage; William 1778 - 1831, married Diana Williams at St. Annes Soho, in 1800. Died in Westminster.  Mary born 1781, married Thomas McHester, 28 June 1801, at St. Annes, Soho.

John (1) born 1783, died in 1783 - 1789, possibly at the same time as his mother Sarah. Buried at Bunhill Fields, a popular non conformist cemetary, just north of Westminster. This explains why John had two further attempts at naming a son John, after himself. John (2) 1794 - 1796 at Westminster and John (3) born 1804 in Australia.

This still left Catherine who was only aged 16. Did she stay with her sister ? More out of curiosity I looked at the marriages again. Sure enough, Catherine married John Nightingale, 1st  Sept 1801, also at St. Annes, Soho. This was some 6 months before the family were due to emigrate.

John had made certain that his daughters were cared for before he left for Australia

Additional information from Grahame Thom in August 2025

I am a descendant of John Turnbull and Ann Warr who arrived in Australia in 1802. I live in Victoria, Australia. You can see my descent in a chart on my family history website. The links below go to our National Library of Australia website as the Library has rated my website as making a significant contribution to the Australian society.

https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20230521140126/https://grthom.info/dad/https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20230521140126/https://grthom.info/dad/
https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20230521140109/https://grthom.info/Turnbull/https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20230521140109/https://grthom.info/Turnbull/

I am a Fellow (1992) of the Heraldry and Genealogy Society of Canberra and I am the Sennachie of the Clan MacThomas, see the link below. Also I have been a member of the Clan Turnbull group based at Ebenezer, NSW, Australia.

https://clanmacthomas.uk/pages/genealogysennachie.html/?

I have in the past exchanged many emails with the late Albert Turnbull, the late Maria Turnbull and Fiona Turnbull, and I would like to update my past comments as there are still issues relating to the John Turnbull article on the Clan Turnbull Association website. Also I will briefly mention John’s wife Ann Warr.

John Turnbull’s birth year
Extracts from early New South Wales (NSW) records

September 1801 applying for permission to emigrate to NSW, aged 48 years - copy of original document
November 1828 NSW Census (book) aged 75 years
Burial Register certificate, died 9 June 1834 aged 91 years
Headstone died 12 June 1834 aged 86 years

Each of the four ages gives an approximate birth year.
1801 - 48 = 1753.
1828 - 75 = 1753.
Burial 1834 - 91 = 1743. Age at death means someone else provides the information; this is unreliable as is his headstone.
1834 - 86 = 1748. It is recorded that the original headstone did not last and some years later the Turnbull family erected a replacement headstone.

Conclusion - John Turnbull was born between 1743 and 1753. The most reliable are the immigration document and the census return, ie 1752/53.

Place of birth

None of the above state where John was born. The first book that pays significant attention to the Turnbull family is “Pioneers of Portland Head”, by a well known local historian R M Arndell (Ron) in 1973. His Chapter 16, headed “John Turnbull” states on page 247 “John Turnbull and his wife Ann Warr were both natives of Annan, Dumfries, Scotland.” No further comment was provided except to indicate in a family tree that John was born about 1743, Also Ron states that John was aged 59 years on arrival. And he states John was aged 91 years when he died, so age on arrival was probably a deduction based on 91 years old in 1834. No references were provided by Ron.

Fay Attewell’s book “Upon a state unknown”, published in 1988

This book is about Fay’s ancestors, including the Turnbulls. On page 55 she states John Turnbull was born in Annan, Scotland, in about 1743 to William Turnbull and Margaret Johnston, but gives no source, other than in a general reference list states Old Parish Church Records, Annan, and Memorials in Annan Old Burial Ground. Also she states that John’s grandparents are Nichol Turnbull and Janet Johnston.

The problem here is that familyearch.org wiki indicates there are very few recorded baptismal entries in the 1700s for Annan. I am doubtful about Ron and Fay’s details above. Marie Turnbull and Albert Turnbull also searched for a birth in or near Annan, but found nothing relevant. I have yet to read the Kirk Session minutes of that time.

Late Marie Turnbull published her book “In the Footsteps of John Turnbull” in 2000

Her book describes her aim of finding where John Turnbull came from in Scotland and also covers her Australian Turnbull line. Marie travelled to Scotland searching for John’s Scottish origins. Her research is extensive over many years. Marie’s conclusion is that she did not solve the puzzle of John Turnbull’s birth or parents. She states on page 179 “Though early research assumed my John came from Annan in Dumfrieshire, I could find no connection in the 1700s to that parish and, more importantly I never heard my father mention the name Annan.” A point to make here that it appears the records for most of the 1700s are not extant, so any connection to Annan is a possibility. Marie strongly considered John, the youngest son of James and Elspeth Turnbull, baptised 28 April 1751 in Morebattle, Roxburghshire, to be John of Ebenezer. Morebattle is seven miles south of Kelso.

Three other important comments in Marie’s book are :-

1. On page 23 Marie says “Bamf was another place name I’d heard from my father. …. I found a Bamf mill less than a mile north of Sprouston village.” Note that Sprouston is about 2 miles north east of Kelso. An alternate spelling of Bamf is Banff.

2. On page 88 talking about the home called Kelso on Mud Island (Hawkesbury River, NSW) Marie states “George and Rafe (Ralph) Turnbull, sons of the pioneer John Turnbull bought it on the 8th April 1824. Russell assured me the home was named by his grandfather John Warr Turnbull.” John was born in 1840 and lived there until he died in 1928.

3. On page 146 Marie states “The possibility of John having married again suddenly recalled the story Dad told me many years ago that old John had been married a number of times, and I still can’t be certain of the exact number”

Dorothy and Roy Turnbull’s book “Coromandel” published 2002

The only comment in Dorothy and Roy’s well researched book about John Turnbull’s Scottish connection is “Despite much research no verifiable date or place of birth for either John or Ann has been established. However some earlier writings have stated that he was born in Annan, Dumfriesshire, Scotland, but in the Old Parish Register at Annan there is no John Turnbull between 1740 and 1753.”

On page 48 Dorothy and Roy have included a copy of a letter dated 1 January 1834 and signed by Ralph Turnbull, John’s oldest son, to the Colonial Secretary about issuing a deed for a grant of 100 acres on the Colo River. This letter states the name of the land is Ann Dale. I think this was named after Ralph’s mother Ann Warr. But I wonder if this has been interpreted by some people as Annan Dale.

Fiona Turnbull’s bible

Fiona Turnbull, who is the Project Administrator of the Turnbull-Trimble-Trumble FamilyTreeDNA Project, holds a Turnbull family bible. This bible records her Turnbull ancestors including the birth of a John Turnbull in 1748, the son of William Turnbull and Mary Meins, without noting his birth place. Of the seven children two were born in St Boswell, a small town on the Tweed River, west of Kelso.

Fiona has her Turnbull tree on WikiTree (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Turnbull-772) where she records that William Turnbull and Mary Mean (sic) had the following children

William Turnbull born 2 February 1742, location unknown
John Turnbull born 6 November 1748, location unknown
James Turnbull born about 1749, location unknown
Francis Turnbull born 23 June 1752 in Eccles, Berwickshire Scotland
Jean Turnbull born 2 June 1754 in Kelso, Roxburghshire, Scotland
Robert Turnbull born 8 February 1760 in Kelso, Roxburghshire, Scotland

The following were found on the website familysearch.org and on scotlandspeople.

James was baptised on 24 September 1749 at St Boswell son of William Turnbull
Francis was baptised on 23 June 1752 at Eccles, son of William Turnbull and Mary Mein

No entries were found for the first two children. They were probably baptised in another church in the area in Roxburghshire, Scotland where the records have not survived.

Albert Turnbull’s book “The Turnbull Pedigree” published in 2018

The late Albert Turnbull was a genealogist with many years of experience and he assisted Marie Turnbull for years before she published her book. This resulted in Albert writing a chapter in his book about what he found regarding John Turnbull’s birth and background. One general observation about Albert’s book is that he does not provide any source references. The chapter, pages 31 to 36, is headed John Turnbull - Pioneer 1748-1834.

Albert refers to Fay and Marie’s books and says “I believe that the truth lay somewhere in between the two stories…..” He starts by referring to John and Ann Turnbull’s daughter Mary Ann who was born in London in 1796, married firstly in Portland Head, NSW in 1813 James Joseph Hartley; they had two sons and a daughter, and secondly Joseph Hartley in 1825. They had one son Thomas in 1821, Mary was murdered by her husband in 1825.

Albert wrote “Mary Ann states that her grandfather was named William born c1719 and even knew the date if his death as 23 Oct 1780. She also states that her great grandfather was Nichol Turnbull, born 1685 at Melrose.” Quite a lot of Fay’s book is written in the first person, and at no stage in Fay’s book did Mary Ann say all this. The above was presented in a chart on page 55.

Then Albert says “It also gives credence to the story that John as an 18 year old married Mary Bell at Graitney (Greta) and had two daughters Mary and Elizabeth, before his wife died in childbirth, in 1770.” There is no evidence that the John Turnbull who had two children with Mary Bell is John Turnbull tailor. Nor is there any evidence that Mary Bell died in 1770. All this is not supported by sources.

On page 32 Albert says “The fact that John descends through Nichol 1685 and William c1719 and John 1748 is I believe sacrosanct ….” This can easily be challenged. For example there is no proof that John Turnbull tailor was born in 1748 and his parents are Willian Turnbull and Mary Mein, while Fay considers John’s parents are William Turnbull and Margaret Johnston.

Albert then says “John had connections to Kelso and Waterloo, the names of his Australian homes.” Certainly a connection to Kelso is likely as recorded by Marie. But neither were the names of John’s homes. Kelso was first used by John’s descendant Johm Warr Turnbull probably in the late 1800s as the name of his home on Mud Island in the Hawkesbury River. Waterloo appears to be used by John’s son Ralph to name a 200 acre block at Ebenezer (see Dorothy and Roy’s book).

Albert correctly refers to Marie’s reference to Bamf (as spelt by Marie). Again Albert places much weight on the entries in the Turnbull bible held by Fiona. But he does not say why except that it fits into his story by saying “The timing of the children is immaculate.”

Again Albert refers to Waterloo by saying “Remember John’s second home WATERLOO?.” There are two issues here, John did not have a “second home”, especially one named Waterloo.

He considered that John Turnbull while living in London would have walked in the area of Waterloo, Waterloo Bridge and Waterloo Road, ie because in using the name Waterloo he was remembering his days in London. This connection is highly unlikely.

The Battle of Waterloo occurred in 1815 thirteen years after John left London. The area of Waterloo was not developed and named Waterloo until after the Battle. Also John Turnbull would have read the news of the Battle’s name as widely reported in the newspaper Sydney Gazette, and as a response he donated to Sydney’s Waterloo Fund. After years in the colony his interest in land development in London at age around 70 years would have been minimal compared to the newspaper articles of the Battle in many issues of the Sydney Gazette throughout 1816.

Albert on page 35, states that John Turnbull, born 1748, signed his name in the bible when he was 12 years old and implies that this signature is similar to the John Turnbull signature made in the emigration papers in 1801. In my view this signature was written by the same person who recorded the births of the children.

John Turnbull’s marriages.

Fay and Dorothy in their books make no reference to the possibility that John had married several times before being married to Ann Warr as stated in Marie’s book. Starting on page 127 Marie refers to the marriage of a John Turnbull to Sarah Coulter on 13 November 1775 at St Martin’s in the Field (London) by saying “This John’s signature was something like my John’s. The written surname had similarities, but the written ‘John’ was nothing like his and I believe it eliminates him.

On the same page Marie looks again at the marriage of a John Turnbull to Mary Hodge(s) at St. Botolph’s in Bishopgate (London) on 28 September 1776. She then obtained the original record of this marriage so as to compare signatures. On page 129, after close examination stated “I was sure it was more that likely both signatures were signed by the same hand.”

Marie, after an indepth investigation, found that John and Mary had a daughter Eleanor on 6 May 1779 in London and a son James on 2 May 1782 in Denholm, Scotland, about 17 miles south west of Kelso. She then investigated why James was born in Scotland and found father John was a tailor and he had a connection with a local family there named Oliver. After more research Marie was satisfied that John Turnbull tailor of London had married Mary Hodge and that at least Mary had returned to Scotland for James’ birth. Therefore these events appear in Marie’s family tree in her book.

Albert on page 33 in his book records three earlier marriages before John married Ann Warr in London in 1790. Namely (1) to Mary Bell in 1766 in Gretna, Annan, (children Elspeth born 1766 and Mary 1770) (2) to Ann (surname unknown) in St Olave, Southwark in about 1771 (children Jane 1772 and Nichol James in 1774 and (3) to Sarah Coulter in 1775 in St Martins Westminster (children William 1777, Mary 1781, John 1783 and Catherine 1785).

I tend to accept Marie’s claim that John had married Mary Hodge in London in 1776, and that means John did not marry Sarah Coulter. However Albert, in an email to me, considers that the John Turnbull who married Mary Hodge was another John Turnbull who was baptised in 1750 at St Botolph’s Church in Bishopsgate.

Recently I found on familysearch.org that a John and Ann Turnbull had a daughter Eliz baptised on 30 April 1769 at St Olave church. This means it is reasonable to conclude that one of the first two marriages listed by Albert must not involve John Turnbull tailor.

I suggest it is unlikely John as an apprentice tailor, married Mary Bell in 1766, especially if it is accepted in Marie’s research that John had been born in 1751.

Albert expresses an opinion, in a Chapter headed Importance of DNA in Family Research that “You cannot dispute DNA findings”. Certainly the DNA matching process can, when carefully examined, lead to reasonable conclusions. For example, Fiona is the Project Administrator of the Turnbull-Trimble-Trumble group on the website familytreeDNA, and this project includes the autosomal test results for four John Turnbull descendants, and none mach to Fiona’s DNA or to each other. (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/trimble/activity-feed)

DNA

Recently two male descendants of John Turnbull (Coromandel) with the surname Turnbull undertook yDNA tests with familytreeDNA and became members of Fiona’s Turnbull-Trimble-Trumble Group Project. Fiona’s father is also a member. There is no match between Fiona’s father and the two Coromandel Turnbull descendants.

This means Albert’s conclusion that the Coromandel John Turnbull is the John Turnbull born 6 November 1848 as recorded in Fiona’s bible, is incorrect.

I have one small autosomal match with one of the male descendants mentioned above.

Conclusions

John’s birth

All this makes one wonder about the conclusions reached by Albert despite the many hours he put into helping Marie with her research.

Because of the lack of church records for Annan is is difficult to dispute the statements by Ron Arndell and Fat Attwell that John Turnbull was born there. However Marie says that based on information from Turnbull descendants, especially her father, no mention was made of Annan and other information tends to indicate John was born in the Kelso area of Roxburghshire, Scotland.

Marie, based on her extensive research, and with Albert’s assistance, concluded that John was baptised at Morebattle in 1751. This has yet to be confirmed.

This also means that the names of John’s parents remain uncertain.

John’s early marriages

Marie, Albert and I all agree that it is likely John was married prior to his 1790 marriage to Ann Warr. But I do not think we have enough evidence to prove how many times he married or to whom.

Ann Warr

Ann Warr married John Turnbull in London in 1790. She died in 1819 at Ebenezer, NSW, Australia. Ann’s age at the time of her death is recorded on her headstone with John Turnbull in the Uniting Church, Ebenezer burial ground, as 51 years. But interestingly she was buried nearby in the burial ground of St John’s Church (Church of England), Wilberforce where there her headstone stands. Her age is recorded as 54 years.

There appears to be no recorded information during her life about Ann’s place of birth or the names of her parents. This means it is speculation to record in any familytree, Ann’s date of birth and names of her parents.

Grahame Thom
Descendant of John Turnbull and Ann Warr